Gurdjieff's Enneagram & Stages of sound in process of manifestation


Question: This is a doubt that arose when we talked about the relationship that sound is having with the Universe. Whether there's any connection with the seven notes in music? Seven chakras..... seven notes.... Any connection between them? There's another thing, there is a teaching of Gurdjieff called the enneagram teaching. It's relating to music. Hence is there any relation between the seven notes and seven chakras?


Krishnan Kartha: The various terms used here are inter related. Not only the chakras, notes in music, but in the case of several things, there is a tendency to link them with each other. There's truth in it to some extent, no doubt. But in my personal opinion, it's not such kind of academic interests that should go into it. If note S0 is regarded as base of sound, we can see note S0 again in highest octave too. It's repeated again. The note S0 is in the highest octave too. Thus it's structured in the same way pointing to the structure of the Universe, by its presence in both the ends. But if we are relating it to music, the main difficulty in it is that we are used to a habit of creating these sorts of correlations in every thing. Then the main problem is that, the real researchers will be misguided. They won't be discovering new things. They won't be following up. Then what will happen is that it will be leading to a situation where most of the things will be considered as a material hoax. Some of our professors give mathematical proofs for supporting Indian concepts. No doubt, those talks are attractive to many people. But they are creating the same problem. Thus there will arise a tendency to rebuke the whole Indian philosophies completely. Hence my personal opinion is to avoid such exaggerated calculations. We have already talked about the relationship that sound is having with the creation, twice or thrice. Hence the only thing left is this relationship with music which is now being asked. Otherwise everything starting from the beginning of sound up to the top most state is being related to the creation. It's not the seven notes that can be directly linked to the creation. If these seven notes are first taken into consideration as you asked, in the most beginning state and the last end state after the seven notes on reaching the top, this continuation can be seen. This should be brought to study in connection with the Jain cosmology. They are much more interested in these things of changing the worlds. Worlds should be seen only as the different stages of development of the vast human mind, else there are no other worlds. They are all frequencies, as discussed earlier. As it's divided into three octaves there, it can be seen that three types of worlds are created. Hence if we consider those in between the S0 and S0 as chakras, the seventh note S0 again comes as the eighth chakra. Thus 'Ni', 'Nishadam' is coming as the seventh note. Isn't it? 'Shadjam', 'Rishabham', 'Gandharam','Madhyamam', 'Panchamam',Dhaiwatham' and 'Nishadam'. Thus the seventh note is coming in that 'Nishadam'. Again another 'Mooladhara chakram', as you have mentioned in relation to chakras, I am saying like this, we will be seeing the beginning of 'Mooladhara chakram' here again. What does it point to? If we are taking such a simile, it should be understood that after the mental growth from 'Mooladharam' to 'Sahasraaram', it begins in another 'Mooladhara Chakram'. It's this that our friend Sri. Vishnu has pointed out in an earlier discussion as a story about a crow named 'Bhusundan' which is being told by Sage Vasishta to Sri Rama. This cyclical repetition... Actually it's not only these three octaves that are present in music. There are musicians who can go to 'Athitarasthayi' and 'Athimantrasthayi'. Hence if the most basic forms of life are starting from 'Athimantrasthayi', by going to 'Athitarasthayi' it will be pointing to a life with a different level of frequency. As you have told like that, I have gone to such a thought. If we take this as an indicator, surely that indicator has this much depth, there is an indication of reaching to these higher frequencies. That's all about the seven notes. Now regarding the four kinds of words 'Madhyama', 'Vaikhari', 'Pashyanthi' and 'Para', these sorts of discussions are also happening regarding the origination of creation. Several books are talking about that. The origination of sound, its expansion, its exhalation, its dissolution are the four stages when a sound is formed in us.... the most microscopic form of that sound. The most subtle form, the inner portion from where it is originating as a gross form from the subtle form, the pronouncing part, that is the third stage where that sound is being told, then again the state where this sound gets merged again into the subtle form. Why because physics says that what all sounds we hear, everything will be staying here in the form of energy. Human beings may be finding out ways to hear those sounds back. I don't know whether it's already there. That's why we feel very pleasant while going to some places where the most good things are being spoken but feel just the opposite while going to situations which are turbulent. There we are recognizing the presence of sound in the form of energy. Thus there it starts from a stage where thought gets converted into word or sound and going to the next stage where sound reaches to a gross form, and it becomes gross. Coming out as sound. With the nature of audibility. It lowers and lowers, become subtle and is lost. Lost means the audibility is lost. Becomes inaudible. Then it should be understood that this sound will be attaining another form when its audibility is lost. These four stages can be compared to the origination of the Universe. Such sorts of studies have taken place in quantum physics. Thus like the way of origination of sound till its completion, the origination of the Universe and its dissolution..... starting from nothingness and ending in nothingness... the origination and dissolution of the Universe starting from emptiness and ending in emptiness..... This science of sound, or our studies relating to sound are called as 'Chathvarivaakpathani'. Ganapati is referred to as 'Chatwarivaakathmakam' in some keerthanas. Some Upanishads relating to Ganapati has also used the word 'Chathvarivaakpathani'. Thus the journey of a human being through these four types of processes of creation is seen as an evolution. From the basic nature, human being will grow to a level equivalent to 'Devas', with all their manifestations....not one or two human beings but the entire human race..is heading towards that.... this is what is to be inferred from what is pointed out just now. Because then only after the completion of sound, the experience of dissolution of music can happen. Thus the journey from that beginning towards the end through those four words, I think Sri. Baiju has asked about it yesterday....It was asked as which word.... It's not about the word, in relation to sound, the frequency of sound as we have learned in our school classes, will be starting from higher and will be going towards lower before dissolution. Thus we have studied that it starts with a high frequency but drops down to lower frequencies. Thus we can see that every sound has got these four stages. Thus we can find that in the case of the creation of Universe also, as the theatrical scientists says, there are different stages like initial action, growth of action,climax and decline of action kind of growth as well as withering can be seen. If I say like this from initial action to decline of action, you may be feeling doubtful that there is a peak only in the middle. That's the most eventful time of Nature is the time when it is energetic, functioning in its characteristic of Rajoguna. In the beginning also there will be the saatvik nature and in the end also, there will be saatvik nature..... The elevation happening in the climax of Rajo guna and the declining back from the peak of Rajoguna back to saatvika is an interval. Thus it's possible to compare the example which you just told with that of music. It's possible to compare with the fluctuations in a sound. Thus starting from initial action and going into a climax, climax is a most powerful state of 'Rajoguna'. It's pointing to a situation where human beings will fight with each other for their life without any saatvik quality and will be concentrating on their selfishness only. After that they will be coming down again to an atmosphere of tranquility and peace. It's at that time the growth of human being to the level of 'Devas' will take place as I have mentioned earlier. It should be understood that the dreams which human beings have about the 'Devas', everything will be attained by human beings themselves through the development of science. In our childhood, we never imagined about a medium like this which we are using now for this talk. Your childhood is somewhat earlier, mine had come only later.... not then also. But today's children are seeing them from the beginning. Thus daily that much of development is attained by science. Hence don't think these spoken things as in vain. The journey of human beings is into such possibilities. After some time, surely human beings will be coming into a situation where he should believe in the philosophy of humaneness, in the completion of his humanity. It's not at all apart from the philosophies present here. These all things have been told here earlier. It has already being told by Siddhartha Gautama. Zen has already told this. Everybody has already told.... But hiding the real spirit, as we are going out with a duplicate version of the same and distributing, this is not familiar to us, that's all. When the time comes for familiarisation, it will become familiar. When the societal norms becomes like that, that will become the truth. Because we are believing several things by force. We have faith in science, We believe that what science is saying is the greatest truth. Why we are thinking so? This science has come with force. Along with the power that uses force. In the preface written by Sri. Anand for the book written by Sri. Hashim, it says that it was Ashoka, the emperor who brought forward Buddha as a world famous Master who was actually not so famous at that time. Surely that may be the case. He might have got the acceptance as a prince, might have surely got a milage.... That may be there. Thus the reason for getting that much popularity is strength, power. If it comes through the language of power, we accept several things. Thus we have accepted science also. Entire world has accepted science. This does not mean that science is wrong. But we should recognize that there is a strength behind the acceptance of a doctrine. There is a possibility that where ever there is power, the arguments put forward by such power is to be accepted by unarmed common man without any refuge. This has happened in Earth for all the times. Zoroastrianism has gone somewhere. It was a doctrine which reigned in so many continents for so many aeons. It went somewhere. After that Buddhism spread world wide. Thus we have to believe in science because of this supporting power which it is having. Thus how many things are there for making human beings believe by the application of force. Thus after being tired of experimenting with all these powers, there is a hope of returning of human beings back to the Saatvik state which I have earlier mentioned. Thus we have to conclude by saying that it's the journey from the subtlety to subtlety of Vaikhari, Madhyama, Pashyanthi, and Para in music is what is pointed to.

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