Is enlightenment a violation of natural law

Updated: Apr 14, 2021


Question: During the time of entry into a state of unconsciousness from consciousness, how a man has to live in unconsciousness, whether his journey will be documented there. Means, whether there's a certain plan for sure.

Krishnan Kartha: Let's move forward after making it clear, please stop. There is no such thing as planning. This is what I have told earlier. In any way, people will be coming with a planning. It's this that Krishna Murthy was trying hard. The reason why Krishna Murthy has taken away the concept of God is that you people are so much conditioned about God. God is sitting there and planning all these bloody nonsense , and you are giving that silly job to God That's why it has been told like that. The first assumption that Baiju has put forward is that, when a conscious human being enters as an unconscious one, it's asked whether there is a plan. So what I am saying is that it's natural for a person who is coming from a Semitic background to always think about a creator. No need to blame that. Because it's like Habit in the basket until baked. I don't believe that this will change. Because it's difficult for us to change like that. It's a very relevant thing that Krishna Murthy is saying about conditioning. That's why he tried to break and fold what all things that are called as the religion. It will be done by anyone. Because some people are bringing unnecessary promptings mandatorily to those several things which are opposed to Truth. That's why that. So the things which he has told is that there is a planning when an unconscious one becomes conscious. There the first mistake is that, there's no need of planning, as we have just told. It's not one person or a group of persons who is unconscious, please understand that the entire Universe is unconscious is what I meant clearly. The only thing which is in consciousness is consciousness. Only consciousness.. What I am trying to convey is that the decision of that consciousness to come down to the existence in the form of Satchitananda itself is unconsciousness. No body would have said that. I don't know whether some body has told. Anyway I am have said. You can either believe or not believe. Some body can dissect... No problem. Anyway truth seekers should reach to this. That's why we are trying to become conscious. We know that we are unconscious. I said, it's convinced that we are unconscious. Not as conscious. Every body is saying this that you are conscious... You are conscious... Like that. But you don't feel. We are not able to experience any of its experiences or any of its glory. Then how can we say that we are conscious. So the one who is enlightened.... Not saying as enlightened... Because by enlightened, it will mean enlightenment is something separate from him. There is nothing like that. Firstly, why I am correcting Baiju's statement is because there is no use of building upon some thing wrong. If we build up a building on a wrong foundation, it will fall down. Hence it should be corrected then itself. The one who is enlightened cannot be unconscious. What I have said is that consciousness turns into the fully unconscious Universe, which is the conjugal form for the fulfillment of bliss. Hence it's only the enlightened one who is consciousness itself. Is consciousness. Then what's inside that, those who have reached the enlightened state peeps into that consciousness, the Buddhas, they have seen the non relative emptiness in that consciousness.... That's consciousness... That consciousness is turned into the unconscious Universe. That's the first stage. Hence that's why, there's a search for bliss only. There the search will go on. Childhood is full of bliss. But after some time, when memories come, this will change and children will start searching for toys. After some time, on becoming young, boys will be searching in young girls and young girls in young boys. On reaching old age, they will be thinking about all the bliss that they had. As Sri Sankacharya has told, In childhood, there will be an addiction for playing, in youth, there will be an addiction for the opposite sex, in old age, there will be an addiction for thoughts, there will always be a search for subjects which will give one sort of bliss or the other. This is what is happening. Hence coming for that. Coming for that vitality. Coming for entering into that, misunderstanding it as a part of planning. Take away the thought of planning from the beginning itself. I have already made it clear in our earlier discussions that going to such an unconscious state itself is a karma. We have talked about free will... The decision of the consciousness to go to the state of unconsciousness is a karma. That's a commitment, it's a commission, commission of Principle, commission of error, every thing combined. Leaving its natural characteristic, it makes a decision to become the Universe which is unconscious. From there itself the karma starts. As part of this karma, that we search for bliss, not be completely satisfied by the attainment of bliss and search for bliss every where, thinking from where it can be obtained. Some had committed thefts for getting bliss. After these thefts were done, they were brought to lime light by the media, police and judges. Now they will start to run away in order to escape from this. See what all things happen. It's a bliss for the other group to get them rid of power. Seeing all these, like the fox which comes to lick the blood when two goats fight media on one side. In that way, an act for bliss, for happiness, for wellness everything lies in consciousness. Because of the nostalgia of what we have experienced. As we know that we have experienced bliss, we have a desire to go back to that, and hence we are searching for it. It won't be understood, it won't be taken as truth when told. So there is no need for planning. One primordial karma can create numerous karmic consequences and the Universe will be wandering in search of pleasure and pain.... Experience... It is certain, that is the consequence of primordial cause , which is the desire to manifest itself as an unconscious universe. That karma is being written when consciousness descends down to become the Universe which is an unconscious thing, a system. All these things which we see are part of that primordial karma. Every body is a part of it. Understand that it requires no scheme. Thus that part is cleared. Considering this also, Baiju, you continue asking your question.

Question: When a karma has been created from a primordial karma, what happens there is that, a contraction to the universe from the unlimited state to the limited state, from the indefinite to the definite is what happens. Because that contraction itself is an arrival into the Nature which is concrete, because that's a sort of arrival like that, I have called it as planning. In that contraction, as one comes into a limited nature from an unlimited nature, a limitation, a limitation like everything is written.... Like a cause and effect..... That's why it seems to me like there is a cyclical repetition where everything is happening again and again. That's why I have used the word 'plan'. But a better word is, a limitation into a wheel of karma, a limitation is created there. That's what I wanted to say.

Krishnan Kartha: I deny that also. That's what I said, we must deny those words there itself. Because I don't accept that also. Because the limited nature, as you told, the contracted nature, is the one which is unique, without a similar one like that, before it. Not with a similar one. What you have to think is the non existent ultimate emptiness where only the consciousness remains. That's to be imagined. From that primarily a contraction is that occur. You have said it very correctly. Because of contraction, a contracted Universe is created. The laws relating to that are created by itself in that becoming. As we are used to writing programs, as if a programmer like that is sitting and planning, as if writing (a word like written was used. That's the thing.) The sound originates from there, then how it can it be said as written. Even, a word like writing should not be used. This is my view. That's rejecting Truth. All these problems have arisen because we again teach and teach the truth which is Ultimate using some other things. We have to understand truth as naked truth itself, don't learn truth with the help of other devices. This is what the latest Buddhas are telling us. Krishna Murthy and the like have already told this. Krishna Murthy has told this in a detailed manner. But if we ask why Krishna Murthy was not able to bring this to the millions effectively, it's because, he taught a small group.... A few assumed that they had understood the intellect told by him. It's all true, because he was a stubborn man. He had some stubbornness. The character of attention as told, if he was there to an attention devoid of concentration, he is so to it that he is not confined to any system. A violence is created in such a place where a force is applied. That's the problem there. It has a karmic consequence. Also he had no desire to lead people, that's another thing. What I am trying to say is that persons like that have already come and said. Hence we don't have to try to learn truth by learning these false things. There's a justice in teaching children that the Sun rises in the East. Because they don't understand anything else. But it will be a non sense if we begin to teach Jayaraj Sir like that. In no way can the terms written or planned like that can be used. I won't be using such terms in any of our discussions. Please understand that it won't be coming unknowingly also. Moving forward by denying planning, writing etc. In no way can we move forward by agreeing these things. Now you can say what you have to say. Question has not yet come. It was broken there itself when it came. It was denied, let the question come.


Questioner: Then I will say in another context. If I put forward a simple proposition, for example one man is used to drinking. He will be going to an ecstatic state by drinking alcohol. In this drunken state, he thinks that he is really a conscious man. And he wants to go back to consciousness. How much he thinks about it, there will be certainly an influence of this liquor. It's not possible for him to escape from the ecstatic state of that liquor until its gravity is reduced. Like that, one gets into the stage to play the drama.


Krishnan Kartha: let that example remain there. I know that you are used to drinking. If cheek is beaten hard, all of a sudden he will be gaining consciousness, do you know? Do you know that? I have not drunk... Do you know this? Because liquor affects mainly the cerebellum and balance. If cheek is beaten hard, suddenly consciousness will be gained. What do you say about it? What you have told is that, it's not possible to return back to consciousness at all, until the effect of liquor is gone. But there are ways. If we beat a person who is completely out, it won't be working, it's another thing. Never compare such a drunkard to a mind which is trying to become conscious. Why? Because the one who is trying to become conscious has got a dream from the unconscious one to the conscious one. Not like that drunkard who is lying down in a state of disappointment and denial for life. There's an ability to receive. This beating is what I have already told like shooting of a neutron towards the nucleus... The shooting which results in fission. That's a beat... Also you can't use that example. That's also gone. Bring another example. You just ask question. Don't go for theoretical decorations. Where ever there are theoretical decorations, there will be things that we can't agree with, they will have to be pointed out. Hence you tell the problem plainly without any theoretical decorations, like what the problem is.


Questioner: Yes I understood what you have told. But my question is that whether a violation is not there.


Krishnan Kartha: What violation?


Questioner: Because, now we have contracted into a limited state, a compressed state exhibiting compression. For every thing we are having a law. Isn't it against that law that we are trying to ride back. Because at the time of arrival itself, when contraction occurs as Nature itself, a limited state of that karma through that contracted state, a script like a written one, may be said Because it has been written, the desire to go back will be a movement against that script. My question is whether it's like that?


Krishnan Kartha: What a simple thing it was that you have spoiled by bringing the unwanted things. The question is simply this, for the one who comes into the world which is illusory, which the Mayavaadis call as Maya, for him why he should get rid of illusion? It's the same thing which I am asking you for the last few days whether you have not come to see the cinema in this cinema theatre. It's answer has already been told. It's for watching cinema that one comes to the cinema theatre. There's a screen in the cinema theatre in which the film is screened, if the actor who is a Buddha begins to deliver a lecture by saying that the screen is the truth, you will despise him and will be throwing stones at him. Because for what you have come for after spending money. For watching the movie. That movie is transient, not permanent. It's changing. It's for seeing this transient movie itself that you have come amidst the several difficulties. Like that you have taken the form of Universe in order to enjoy this Universe. That's agreed to. No doubt about it. It is a thing which has become very clear. That's what I have told that you are loosing continuity. What to do if these things are repeatedly asked again and again. This is something which was already been admitted and stated, in one of our previous conversations. It has become very clear, no? Now you may be remembering about the example of movie. You have not told anything apart from that, now. This was told in a simple manner. After going to a cinema theatre, whether you watch the movie or simply be watching the screen without seeing the movie. That's, you will be seeing the screen as the truth with eyes kept open till the movie begins, after that when the movie begins, you close your eyes and go to sleep Again during interval time, opening the eyes to see the truth. Is this the nature of one who is watching a movie? No, but...I am getting back to that point where it was reffered to as violence.. Watching the screen without watching the movie is of course a violence. Agreed, but if you don't have the sense that it's simply a movie, you will be even going to tear off the screen also. You have certain limitations in seeing a film. You have to sit and watch the film in a disciplined way in a cinema theatre. You can't spit upon a person to whom you may feel disdain. You can't throw stones from there. You can't interfere when a persecution happens there. You can't go for helping a person, when you see him as being beaten. Who does all these? Those who don't have the consciousness that this is just a film, will be doing that. As I told, when the Lumiere brothers first screened a film, one pregnant lady got up and ran away. A scene in which a vehicle was coming.... It was just a movie..... That was not even a talkie. It was just a movie. There are those who had ran away by seeing that. After that, for a long time, pregnant ladies were not permitted to watch movies. In the past, while the dramas of Kalanilayam were played, there it was exhibited as 'No entry for ladies and kids'. It was because the dramas like 'Raktharakshas', 'Kadamattathu Kathanaar' etc. were frightening ones. Like that, in old times they thought about whether films may be having a frightening effect, this is an unconscious way of watching films. Now can anyone be like that? Over the years we have come to understand what is film and we are even making films everyday. Every body has started making films. Sending those films to friends and they are being circulated over the network. That's what is happening now. So your question seems to be cancelled Because it's only an assumption that there is violence in it. Because for that purpose only it's said that we have to become conscious. It can be experienced in a right way only when one is conscious. For that Krishna Murthy is saying like this. In that state of total consciousness or totality of consciousness, you may go through experiences and you may not be going through scars of experiences. You may go through experiences, but experiences won't be becoming scars. You won't die due to heart attack by seeing your movie. You will see film as film. As I have told in the previous days, in a Kathakali named 'Poothanamoksham' , a man wearing a saffron dhothi comes with a stool and a doll in between and breaks the continuity of the play creating a variation, as I told. How have you forgotten that. If you ask for what it was for, it was just cinema, it was a duty to make you remember that it was only an art form. With that, Nobody remembered, there was no need also. Luckily there was no one who was completely involved. Hence the violence as you told, don't misunderstand it as a violence leading to consciousness. But the virtue of nature is that you should cry seeing all these and become sad with no way to return back, in this way while you go back, you will be reaching to a consciousness that it was just a film. That's throughout your whole life step by step you will be reaching to the level of consciousness is what the nature likes. Nobody has ever seemed to talk like this. Enlightenment is a biological evolution according to U. G. Krishnamurti, although he denied the term enlightenment. He has said that one is reaching to consciousness by a biological evolution. I am not saying it as simply biological, but it's a continuation of biological existences. You had been in the past, you are here and you will continue to be in the future. And you are going through the process and you will reach a state where you are one with the consciousness. This is the meaning of what is said. That violence as told is because of its deviation from its real purpose. But no need to see it as violence. It is only for real enjoyment Why? There was an Aghori whom I knew. He was in Mumbai. He participated in horse racing, once in a year. He will participate and he will win. Then for the rest of the year, he will be engaged in Tantric practices. Next year, definitely, he will be coming again . He will make money required for one whole year from that single horse race. Experienced life in a simple way. Enjoyment in every moment. That's the state of a conscious man. It is in that state of union with that consciousness, it becomes possible to experience awareness and bliss together. Otherwise we know only about either awareness or experience of a thing. Other wise we either go to experience or go to awareness. We divide the two things like this. Krishna Murthy uses the term division for that. What he says is that, through division, there arises friction. Only when this is integrated that the division will get stopped. Then there won't be any friction. He aims at different things also. It's only that now I have used that term. Hence attention is required for that. Only when there is attention that this division can be stopped. What is called as attention is not concentration. A state where there's attention to everything around. Concentration means centered on a particular thing, leaving every thing behind. As I have told earlier, individual love is a contraction. That is a concentration But universal love is an attention. That's the difference. Hence by that alone, we will be reaching to that collective mind as mentioned. He has not mentioned about a collective mind.... He is referring to that as consciousness.... Leave, that's not our subject. So have you understood this much.

Baiju: Yes Sir, understood.

Krishnan Kartha: Hence the thing of violence is over, no?

Baiju: Yes, over.

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